HomeMy WebLinkAbout10/24/1978 w � •
CITY OF APPLE VALLEY
� PARK COMMITTEE MINUTES
OCTOBER 24, 1978
PRESENT: Roger Wangen, Ginny Sterling, Joe Bell, Dave Miller, Mike Bassett, Council-
member Fitzsimmons.
ABSENT: Joanne Hollenbeck, Bob Naegeli, Ellen Milos
Vice Chairman Sterling called the meeting to order. Park Director Mike Bassett
introduced Mr. David French, Department Head, University of Minnesota Department of
Plant Pathology.
Mr. French gave the following presentation: Involved in the tree project to try to
solve the oak wilt problems before they ever develop property. They have had experiences
in this part of the Metro area where people are sold beautiful wooded lots and then
disaster strikes and it turns out that people who didn't know anything about oak wilt
have spent alot of money for their lovely wooded lots and the next thing they know they
have a bare lot and all the trees are iniliated and they are very unhappy. I think
that if we can work with the developers we can solve alot of these problems and make
it alot better for everyone concerned. The difficulty is then to get in on the ground
floor so to speak and work at the beginning, So often when we are called in on this
it is after the fact and it is too late and in Apple Valley and this general part of
the metro area we have some seriaus problems with oak wil�, in fact, there are other
areas of Apple Valley that the oak population is going to be totally inhiliated unless
• something is done. I welcome these opportunities because there is no way that I
personally can move into any area and have the finances through the University budget
to do the things that have to be done. It is only in the process of developing the
property that we can accomplish these control measures. He refered to the Graham.
Development Project adjacent to Wildwood and stated that there was alot more grading
to do than he had anticipated. They did survey the area initially -- they did it
on the ground and also with a serias of aerial photos. He distributed pictures of
the aerial photos and explained that what they show is that in this particular area
we were facing a very serious problem with oak wilt. I counted 14 infection centers
in just 1/4 of the property" to say nothing of the balance of it. It is a situation
where someone could say well it is so far along that there is nothing that can be done
yet I think that there is some prospect that we can accomplish what we are after.
I think that we can preserve the residual trees and we are not only concerned about
oak wi1t, but also Dutch Elm Disease and my approach to Dutch Elm Disease where the
elm does not constitute a majnr species is simply to inhiliate the species. So we
not only got rid of the case of the Dutch Elm Disease, but we pretty well eliminated
the Elm and I think that is the best way to deal with that. In another development
that is indeed the way we did it, we simply went in and inhiliated the elm. The oak
are obviously the major tree species and if we don't have these you don't have any-
thing, the only other tree of any consequence in this kind of an area outside of
elm which is a minor element and the oaks which are the major element are the black
cherry. The black cherry is a very nice tree, however, it is very, very sensitive to
land developmei�t practices and very likely is not going to survive and the best thing
to do with that in most cases is to take out the tree rather than have it die after
the fact. You must appreciate it, and I am sure you do, that trees that are left
• that are going to be dead and have people developing the property they are going to
pay 3, 4, 5, or maybe 20 times as much to have the tree removed, So as much as possible
we would like to have that tree removed ahead of time. So after surveying the area
from the air and on the ground we then made sure that all of the infection centers
were dealt with. In other words, these trees were erradicated from the area and
also trees within the transition zone between where the disease was present and absent
these were bulldozed out because the oak wilt fungus can travel overland, which
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Park Committee Minutes . �
, 10/24/78
doesn't happen very often which is fortunate, but it can also go through common root
• systems. So now we have reached the point where we are quite certain that all the
major infection centers have been dealt with and we are rather hopeful that there will
be very little oak wiltin 1979 and subsequent years, but I must say too that the fungus
can survive in the root system of oak trees for up to five years and there is always
a chance that this thing is going to hop out someplace where you hadn't expected it.
So it may be that we will have some additional mortality, but hopefully it will be very
minimal. Also there will be a little tree mortality because sometimes the root systems
of trees are damaged in the grading process and because you can't see those root systems
you don't realize that this happened until after the fact. But I again think that this
will be of minor importance. To make a long story very short I think that in this case
we have done (I say we because they did all the work) I think we have dealt with all
of the disease problems in this area. It may require a little bit of clean up in sub-
sequent years, but I don't think that you are going to have the disaster you would have
if these actions were not taken.
Mr. French then stated that he would be happy to answer any questions.
Mike Bassett said that he noted in one of the photographs right south of the park
property it looks like there was a disease center there. Mr. French stated that that
has been wiped out. He further stated that he has walked over the area five or six
times and is quite familiar where these infection centers are and even after this
photography and coming back over this area for another reason we £ound a very small
infection center on the north facing slope that we had missed so we picked that up
and it has been eliminated. Just north of here, and to the east you have some very
large infection centers and if these aren't dealt with the fungus is going to spread
� from those places and it will certainly, I guarantee you, inhiliate every oak tree
in sighfi and the additional jumps overland and no matter what you have done in this
area it can be reattacked from the outside so to speak and eliminate all the effort
that has been made here. He explained that there is alot of potential for overland
spread in an area pointed out on the photos. He further explained where there were
other areas of oak wilt. He said that you can go into any wooded area in Apple Valley
(he has also done some work at the Zoo) and there will be a problem.
Mike Bassett stated that alot of the areas to the north and to the east of Wilc�wood
are areas that are at present unplatted, owned by large land owners and it seems to
be one of our major trouble areas of getting the large land owner to recognize that
he has a problem before he develops the land and get him to do something about it.
If you have any ideas or if you have seen what other communities have done in that
area of any success. Mr. French stated that he is very much interested in that as
that is a thing that gets him quite excited. He said in Burnsville not far from the
Honeywell Golf Course there is a gentlman that owns a tremendous amount of acreage
and until we called it to his attention he was not aware of the fact that he had
oak wilt on his property and he is anticipating developirig that land some day and
selling wooded lots. I can assure him that he will not have wooded lots with the
brush land and dead trees and he was quite interested obviously -- he feels it takes
personal contact and explanations -- you don't do anything by regulations, you do
it by education and it is not possible for us to contact everyone. We now have in
the State of Minnesota an excellent system that when people know about these diseases
-- your City Forester for example, it is through these people that an entire community
is going to get alot better service. He said there is a young fellow in Burnsville
that is very interested in these problems and I go out and help him and he in turn
• works with the property owners. That is the way we are going to get at this and
you will read in the newspaper5 that this is a brand new disease and it is not a
brand new disease, it has been here for years and it isn`t a question of the disease
coming recently and spreading around -- it is the knowledge that has come recently
and has started to spread around. There is a difference.
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, Park Committee Minutes • �
10/24/78
� Dave Miller stated that he has one oak tree in his yard, but about six years there was an
oak wilt scare and since that time I really haven't heard that much about it. Is it
possible for this disease to go dormat for a couple years or is it just that people are
kind of shoving it under the rug. Mr. French said that the interest seems to go up
and down. The disease could have a cycle situation -- sometimes the fungus could
spread to the adjacent trees and then you will have alot of oak wilt in that succeeding
year and it may take another year for it to show up, there may be a year in between.
People have talked about two year cycles, but for my observation you loose about the
same number of oak trees every year. - We figured out and in spite of the publicity
on Dutch Elm Disease, if we calculate the value of the oaks lost every year it would
be far, far greater than the value� of the elms. The unfortunate thing is that with
Dutch Elm Disease -- it is extremely difficult to control, it takes a major effort.
Oak wilt can be controlled and there is absolutely no excuse to allow these situations
to develop. You have to appreciate that when you come into an area like this as the
Graham Development Company did -- they have 2 and 3/4 strikes against them to really
stop it absolutely cold and almost always when we do this experimently we have to
come back in and do some,clean-up work. In areas like this there is really a question
as to how much 'good you can do. It is far better to get into an area early -- this
land to the north and east that I talked about -- it would take some work. The
City has a trencher and so they have the means of dealing with these problems and I
have gone over this with the City Forester and he knows the story quite well in fact.
If you go into those areas and for a small investment you can stop that absolutely
cold.
Mr. French was asked if it is a fungus or a beetle with the Dutch Elm Disease. Mr.
� French stated that it is a beetle that carries the fungus but it is a fungus. Is
the primary source of spreading in the oak wilt the common root systems? Mr. French
stated that it can be carried over land. Both diseases can be spread through common
root systems -- indeed this is one of the failures of the Dutch Elm Disease programs.
They are not dealing with the root spread. The vector system for Dutch Elm Disease
is very efficient.If the oak wilt fungus could sign a contract with the vector system
such as Dutch Elm Disease, there would be no oaks left in the northern half of the
country. We are fortunate that the insect vector here is so lazy that it is very
happy to stay right in the infected tree and drop down over the winter and it has no
great incentive except on special occasions to search out healthy trees and the
insect cannot make wounds where the bark beetle that carries the Dutch Elm Disease
fungus can wound the trees and introduce the fungus in just the right place at the
right time. This fungus can't even get across the street without some help so there
are great advantages in trying to fight oak wilt as trying to fight Dutch Elm Disease.
People have been discouraged by our failure to protect all the elm trees and you
should not think that this is the same kind of situation -- its not. They are differ-
ent diseases even though their fungi are like brother and sister -- they are very
closely related.
Once the tree is diseased is there a check system or a cure? In red oaks, Mr. French
said, that once the fun,gus is in the tree it will move more rapidly in the oak than
a comparable fungus in the elm. It is a potent, terrific thing. One spore, a very
small fraction of an inch, in a tree of any size and two weeks later that tree will
be wilting and a month later it will be foliated and dead. The fortunate thing is
that it doesn't have the good vector system.
, Joe Bell stated that he has heard some some oaks aren't as susceptible as others -- ,
Mr. French stated that all oaks are susceptible. The white oaks are quite resistent
and usually will die over a period of many years. This is one of the interests we
have at the Zoo, they have alot of white oaks that are infected -- trees that are 100,
200, 300 years old that will live alot longer if we can save them, but they die slowly.
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, Park Committee Minutes • �
10/24/78
! Mr. Bell questioned what you could do if you have an infected white oak. Mr. French
stated that they are experimenting with some fungicide injections, but so far we don't
have anything to recommend. Red oak is highly susceptible, it will die within a short
number of days. Mr. Bell asked what he would recommend in a neighborhood that is already
developed. Mr. French stated that working with the City Forester he would understand
this, in fact, when he gets back I plan to go out with him and go over this forilation
of fungus. You ought to be able to prevent this forilation of the fungus totally and
completely. In an area in Burnsville we went in there -- they had 7�8 trees infected
by oak wilt and the spores were going to form on only 31 of those �rees so we dealt
with only those 31 trees and the fungus couldn't sporulate and it doesn't matter
what the insect population is or how active they are, there is nothing to spread and
it ean't do it. So you have stopped that absolutely totally and completely. Then
you simply use the ditchers and you put these barriers in as prescribed and usually
a property owner when he does this he puts the barrier in the wrong place -- he puts
it between an infected tree and a second tree that is infected, but does not show
symptoms. Then when it doesn't work -- he feels that is a rotten piece of advise.
If you put the barriers in where they should go so they are in front of the fungus.
Mr. Bell asked if it is costly. Mr. French asked if the City does it free or not.
Mike Bassett stated that presently we are trying to prorate the cost of the machine
over a five year period of time and we charge $11.00 to $12.00 per hour and often we
can make a sizable ainount of trenching in one hours time so it is not uncommon that
we go into a yard and complete the job in one to one and a half hours. The cost
would be $25.00 at the most. Joe Bell stated that then the City Forester would be
the one to contact, Mr. French stated that you should work with your City Forester
as he is conveniently on your call and can deal with the matter and he also knows
� the territory.
A question was asked -- you say you deal with the trees -- what do you do to them?
Mr. French said there are alot of different ways you deal with the trees. In other
words we go through a stand of trees and we pick out the trees on which the fungus
is forilating and once you have these trees marked you can burn the trees, you can
bury them, debark them, chip them. We have successfully prevented sporilation by
chemical injections, chemically gurgling, tliere are any number of ways that you can
prevent the fungus"from spreading. All of this is outlined in a booklet which I
will send you.
A question was asked about using the trees for firewood. Mr. French stated that is
the reason I mentioned the business of the 788 trees in one small community -- I
marked the 31 trees with yellow tape which meant they could be used for firewood.
Obviously with the price of firewood and the interest in firewood now that is a great
advantage -- �he other trees we dealt with in the community and that takes care of it
so it is a very small percentage. This is something that the City Forester will need
a little help with -- you have to learn how to smell this fungus and know how to pick
out the trees to begin with and how to examine the trees, where to examine them and
once you learn these few little tricks of the trade you can do it. The bulk of them
can be used for firewood.
Mr. Pfeiffer--representing Graham Dev. -- stated that you have to look at the situation
from an economics point of view. Normally it is possible in the process of getting
a contractor to clear a track that he can cash out a certain amount of that so it
. reduces our cost. However, there is such a caution and scare among people when you
deal with oak wilt that they don't know where that product might ultimately end up
and the segregation is very expensive. So for the most part there isn't a cash crop,
or a very nominal cash crop available to the guy doing the stumpage work in a project
like this because he is so darn scared that there will be a liability on his part.
Basically that he has contributed to the spread of the oak wilt.
Page ��5 � �
Park Committee Minutes
10/24/78
� Because there are so many trees involved that it is impossible to take each tree in
this kind of acreage. I just want to point that out. What could normally be if you
have a lot and you are dealing with a few trees is one thing; or as we had an occasion
with elm trees in another subdivision -- there were 998 trees and by the time you felled
all of those trees there was nothing left any way. You just take everything out. One
other comment on my part is that when we were going through the process of plat approval
we had no idea, because it was winter time, of the extent of the infection. So what
happens is that you show the plat with the greenery on it, you make a committment under
those circumstances based on the extent of the grading because of the slopes, etc.
and in reality because of the extent of the infected area which we only knew this spring,
you do make same inroad into what you hope to save. Contrary to alot of people`s opinions
it is to our benefit to be able to market a lot that is wooded within the acceptable
limits of the FHA. It is important that you recognize (I am not bad mouthing FAA so
lets make that clear) , but under the perimeters that they define for approval of a
development, it is very difficult to save alot of trees and still meet their requirements
for drainage and accessability to the home. At the very best you can hope for some
minimal trees on the side lot and a few to the back assuming you don't have slopes.
So from out point of view and I recognize that it is a selfish one because we deal in
dollars and cents -- maybe some of you do in your business as well -- it is a very
difficult needle to thread to try to retain the trees as an amenity and also maintain
trees and not be in.°,conflict with the approval required from FHA for financing to the
ultimate buyer. That is not stated as a complaint, but rather so you would be aware
of that. We oft�n times receive inquiries from people that wonder why in the world do
you do this or that and there is alot of input and that is why we appreciate the oppor-
� tunity to follow through with you on this project so you know that we're doing to the
best of our ability anything or any extent of arbitrary work as it relates to the trees
and the growth on the tract.
Mike Bassett stated that if we can get to the point with all of our developers --
Robinette Fitzsimmons is on our City Council and I think that she has often walked a
lonely road with me there also trying to instill the philosophy on the Couneil and those
in the audience that this is the way to do it -- to work with the developer and get it
done before the people move in and often the frustrating thing is that it has happened
before and just let nature take its course. That is the best thing to do don't spend
the thousands of dollars on oak wilt. It sometimes gets to be a real frustration to
show the merits of the program.
Mr. French stated that in one community there were people who had nervous breakdowns
over the problem and I know in dealing with the property owners after the fact when
oak wilt came in and they had just built their beautiful home among the trees and were
so happy about their location and all of the sudden the trees were removed -- they would
be in tears. I would go out there and first of all I had to establish the fact that I
wasn't working for the contractor -- they wouldn't let me on the property and I was trying
to help save the few trees they have left. When you live through some of these exper-
ien�es you realize that gosh why can't you do something up front in trying to avoid
these types of things. Even before the developer comes along and starts the operation
if you can in your City deal with these problems. He stated that in Burnsville we're
going to try to set a couple of demonstrations in the parks and show people what we
can accomplish. If it is successful maybe we can�t people interested.
� Mike Bassett stated that often people that are ignorant of the disease really need proof
that the control system works.
Mr. French stated that in one of his letters he mentioned that if you have root damage
as a result of drought as we had in 1976 -- alot of people don't appreciate that the
damage can be caused by drought -- by construction and grade changes -- this does not
always show up in the first year.
. Page ��6
Park Committee Minutes � •
10/24/78 � �
� He stated that sometimes it takes up to three years after the damage was done. Ginny
Sterling asked if the drought could hit certain trees in a stand and not all of them.
Mr. French stated that Yes, absolutely. I don't think that people in Minnesota realize
that our trees today are still trying to recover from that drought in 1976. I didn't
think that any of the trees in Minnesota were going to survive in 1977, I really didn't
see how they could make it. There have been hundreds of thousands of birch trees that
have died as a result of the drought. Throughout southern Minnesota Oak trees have
died in tremendous numbers; they will die in odd patterns, but if we can look at the
root systems and soil condition underneath you have the explanation. Some trees died
because they just did not have enough water holding capacity through the root system.
Some of the oak trees that are dying now, people shouldn't panic and cut the tree down
because it is oak wilt because it still be a result of the drn.ught. Robinette
Fitzsimmons stated that they will have to dispose of the tree anyway, but perhaps they
shouldn't panic that they have a stand of oak wilt. Mr. French said -- what I am saying
is that the tree may have died back and if the die back is not too� severe it could recover
over a period of years and if it is in poor condition with only a couple of the lower
branches, then it is not going to recover, but alot of the trees have died back at the
crowns and those trees will recover as long as we don't have another period of drought.
Mr. Pfeiffer stated that they make every effort to try to get out the trees that we
believe we have had some impact on. However, sometimes up to three years later somewhere
a tree will die and the idea that we are not trying to misrepresent anything -- there is
no way to predict which tree or how many trees will die, it is just one of those things
that occurs in attempting to develop land. We have tried to take trees fur'ther back
so we won't have the probl'em, but we can't be 100%. I just mention that because I know
� that somewhere along the line in the next three or four years when someone moves into
Palomino that in fact there will be a tree problem and I am sure that it will be heard
and its not unique there, it happens all the time. I just want you to be aware that
we are not sitting here and telling you one thing and then being two faced about it.
I want you to know both sides, that these things will occur and it might happen on
three houses on one block and six blocks over happen again or :°it may not happen at
all. It is just one of those deals and there is no way to know where it will happen.
Mr. Bassett stated that with resgect to Mr, Pfeiffer's report, could he give the City
a aynopsis so the City' can put it in the`'file so when a person comes in in three years
we can say -- he did a detailed analysis of the trees and the diseased trees were taken
down and every reasonable caution was taken in 1978 to abate the disease through no
fault of Graham Develop�tent or the City has your disease occured. I can see that home-
owner saying that Graham Development didn't do their job in taking the trees out,
they are dying of disease and we would like to have some kind of facts to refute that
I guess. Mr. Pfeiffer stated that one of the things we can do we can leave Dave this
and we will go through and Dave provides us with alot of oral reports, but also we
have in writing a summary of his activities and what has occured there. I think we
can put a cover letter with that Dave and send it to Mike so the City has it on file.
Mr. Pfeiffer added that he is not trying to say -- I want you to understand that we
do the best we can, but we are not going to be 100%. It would be wrong to say anything
else. We appreciate the opportunity to work with the people in Apple Valley. This
is our first experience here, it is our first development and it we enjoy the ability
to have the interchange and share with them and have them share with us, We think
this will be a f ar better end result product for not only the City but the people who
will ultimately purchase homes in the area. Dave has been a very valuable asset and
� we appreciate his efforts. He also thanked for the opportunity to be here.
Councilmember Fitzsimmons stated that she has a suggestion to make -- I know that Dr.
French is extremely busy and probably doesn't have time to be scouting around the
Countryside on alot of visits, but your name is quite well known and your word is
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Park Committee Minutes � �
. 10/24/78
� gospel in this particular line -- what Mike said a few minutes ago about the "hard road
to hoe" and it is very true and it is very frustrating and i feel sometimes like pulling
all my hair out. My own compatriots simply do not take the tree problem as seriously as
I do. I think what you are doing is excellent. (Nofie: the tape went blank at this point.)
Mr.Pfeiffer stated that one of the problems we have in the elm control is that we find kind
of an over reaction in some cases. As an example, I get very apprehensive in some cases
when people get high behind on a reactionary basis. I am not taking issue with what you
are saying because I understand what you are saying, but rather that we have instances
where we have spent literally thousands of dollars working on elm trees to clean them out
and to do a good job and the local guy has come in and said do you have to do this now,
do you have to do that, in fact he is not dealing from a strong base and yet he has to
do something to justify his position and it is easy quite honestly to pick on a developer
because he is not part of the community normally. I am not here crying, but what I am
saying is we want to do what is right as long as everything is coming from a good solid
base and if you can build your program like that regardless of who you are dealing with
I really think you will be better off. Won't you agree Dave. You don't want a reactionary
thing that goes way over board and then you have people scurrying -- they can't even
find enough people to do the work. Try to hire a tree contractor today -- if you have
a couple thousand trees you want to pull out of the woods somewhere. It is impossible.
He again said thank you very much and stated that he hopes they can come and visit with
the Council sometime on a new program.
Mike Bassett asked if they had any rumblings on how the State Shade Tree Reimbursement
Program looks for the future. Maybe that has to go through Legislature again, but
does it look like they will fund again. Mr. French stated that he thinks some people
� have some optimism, but he doesn't share that -- it is just human nature. I have lived
through this from the days when I went down there and talked to the Legislators and
said for gosh sakes we have this disease and it is not far away --- let's try to stop
the elm problem and so on and so forth and they would listen quietly and go on to other
business. No one paid any attention until large elm trees directly in front of the
Capital died of Dutch Elm Disease -- I didn't innoculate that tree, but I realize that
I should have innoculated that tree long before it did actually b ecome diseased, but
probably even more valuable would have been to get ahold of a citizen that had some
influence and gone to work on them. It took all that number of years to build the
interest and get something done, but it is going to fall off the end of the table even
more quickly and the reaction of the public about taxes -- I am afraid that the tree
subsidy program is quite rapidly ending and I am not as optimistic as some people are.
I would suggest to the communities that there is still money in the program and they
are going to alot extra money to the communities, you should use it all that you can
because you may not get any more. I have told people that if there is some doubt about
whether the tree is diseased or not you might as well assume that it is diseased and do
away with it and have the subsidied program. Mike Bassett sta�ed that it is true --
they faced the problem for a couple years when it was very emminent -- now that it is
abating in the twin cities area then it is over. Mr. French stated that the other sad
part of it is that a lot of people are talking about planting trees -- I don't think
that is where the sub�idy money should go -- I think that each community should do what
they think they can do and what they want to do. Let them decide -- not have a statewide
subsidy program for the planting of trees. I don't think you need that -- it is not
near the same as trying to deal with a diseased tree. I am not supportive of that pro-
gram, hawever, that is where some of the money may go.
� Vice Chairman Sterling turned the meeting over to Chairman Wangen.
2. Approval of Minutes from October 3, 1978. Mike Bassett noted that the name of
Joanne Ellison was put in the people in attendance, and in place of that should
be Roger Wangen whose name was deleted --
Minutes were approved as corrected.
Page 4�8
. Park Committee Minutes • .
10/24/78
� 3. Presentation -- Roger Wangen asked if any action should be taken on the prior
presentation -- Mike Bassett stated that it was more for informatir�nal purposes and
he is a renowned expert on the state level and I think it is good to hear what that is
all about and what he is doing. Joe Bell stated that he made a comment about a demon-
stration in the parks and he talked about educating the community -- that is one way to
do it. Mike Bassett stated that right now we have a major problem r���t now in
Alimagnet -- we knew we had some tree disease, but we thought it was basically isolated
to the southern part and it popped up unbelieveably quick not two months ago -- almost
like little brush fires -- we could see disease centers popping up and we have alot
of major tree removal to do in Alimagnet this year which -- like some of your neighbors
Dave and some of the people that are directly abutting that park are going to wonder
what we are doing when we have to go in and put some roads in and bulldozers going in
to get the trees out. I think that we will probably try to make some public announce-
ment of it -- like he says we can ignore it and presume it is going to go away, but
if we don't get a handle on it now the whole park is going to be gone. They plan
to start in December. Roger asked if sometime or someway the public could be notified
that the committee had met with Mr. French and is aware of the problems. Mike Bassett
stated that he could invite Mr. French to come out sometime for a public meeting --
a meeting in the Council Chambers that is promoted -- indicate that we are going to
have a meeting with Dr. French concerning Tree Diseases, A lot of people would be
amazed on what can be done if you really want to take the effort. There was some
discussion on inviting him to the public meeting. Agreed to pursue a public meeting.
4. Review Bond Issue Timetable. (See attached.) Mike Bassett noted that the Timetable
is a revised Timetable for the proposed Bond Issue. The basic components are the same
� as the previous, but we have done some adjusting around. I guess my major feeling when
making this up is that in reality we are in an election year -- basically plan is to
get the information in order and go to the Council in '-January. He reported that he
requested authorization to spend some money to work with a consultant who can get a
hard & fast handle on the actual dollar amount are. What is the actual cost in todays
dollars or maybe next years dollars to build a tennis court, etc. He is in the process
of doing that now, I hope that we can have a hard figure on our dollars by the end of
November. Mike Bassett further reviewed the Timetable.
Roger Wangen stated that the Committee is pretty mnuh in agreement to have something in
the A, B, C type thing. A thrifty plan, a little more plush and then over-plush.
Are the figures at a point where we can start discussing which items should be in which
question? Mike Bassett stated that the Committee should be able to discuss the logic
of what should go in each part. I have a grip on my mind of how we could come up with
two parts; I am not sure about three. It can be discussed. There was further discussion
of the Part 3 -- swimming pool, camp grounds, etc. Mike Bassett stated that the last
bond issue was based on the Five Year Comprehensive Plan -- anything that is over and
above that really takes alot of additional work as far as talking about a swimming pool
as an instance. We aren`t ready to do that -- it takes alot of work before that is
ready to go. He noted that at a previous meeting he gave a proposal of what couid go
into a Part A & Part B type issue.':' Ginny reviewed some of the ideas from the previous
meeting regarding the Part A and Part B -- basically that each park would have something
in the Part A. Then Part B would be if Part A passes then -- it would be additional
development in the parks. Then the Part C would be the swimming pool if that is
feasible and the completion of an Eastview Complex, etc. Joe Bell stated that they
• felt that they couldn't get into what goes into an A, B, or C until there were some
figures to go by.
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' Park Committee Minutes • •
10/24/78
� Roger Wangen stated that the Park Committee wanted to look at what could be allocated to
Parts A & B -- to look at distribution throughout the City so it can be as equal as
possible for each part. There was further discussion regarding the cost estimates for
different items. Mr. Bassett stated he hoped to have the cost information by mid-November.
The Committee discussed having dollar amounts available for the Gommunity Input Meeting.
Mike Bassett stated that he doesn't believe that they need th� figures for the
Community Input Meeting. He doesn't believe that the meeting should be for the
purpose of breaking the news to the public that we are having a bond issue other than
to say we are having a meeting to gain input from the residents regarding the park
system. We will take that information in conjunction with our Five-Year Plan and
prepare an issue that will be coming to the residents probably in the Spring of the
Year. I don't think we have to get into dollar amounts at that meeting.
Mike Bassett stated that his idea for the meeting is to give some introductory comments
and quickly review the five year report so they know what types of things the Park
Committee has been doing. Then get input on the plan and the various parks in the
area. He discouraged getting down to talking about the Bond Issue. Roger Wangen stated
that he felt people would want to know the dollar amounts and what they would be getting
for their money. Mike B. felt that was bond issue promotion, that isn't input.
Bell felt that it is mainly a P.R. thing -- to let people know that the Park Committee
would like their help. Mike B. stated that the input meeting is an oppbrtunity to get
some ideas from people that we should theoretically consider incorporating into the
bond referendum. Sterling stated that if people really want to know the dollar figures
they can come back to the ".�ond issue promotion" meetings. Roger stated that he felt
people are interested in what it is going to cost. Bassett stated that we do have
• estimates.
DISCUSS COMMUNITY INPUT MEETING
It was noted that the City/School will not receive the grant which was applied for --
the dollar amount for the "Eastview Complex" will have to be included in the Bond Issue.
NOTE: The Mid February should be changed to Mid to Late February for mailing out the
Bond Brochure.
Ginny Sterling asked why a Thursday for the Bond Eleetion rather than a Tuesday --
Bassett stated that from the information on "Bond Elec�ions" -- he explained the back-
ground for the brochure. Some of the trends were that Bond Issues have a better chance
than average passing certain times of the month and on certain days; Thursday is a good
day for successful bond issues. Bell stated that in March we could come in conflict
with athletic tournaments. Mike noted that the March is not hard and fast, the Committee
has talked about either March or April.
Ginny asked Mr. Bassett to write an information article about the Input Meeting scheduled
for the 14th of November and get it in the newspapers. Joe Be11 wrote a letter to the
Editor. Mike Bassett noted that a Council Table will be going out the end of the month
and Councilmember Savanick will include information on the front page regarding the
Input Meeting. He also stated that a letter could be sent out to the Civic Groups
inviting them to attend. The residents will have an opportunity to come and tell the
Park Coaunittee members what they feel should be in the parks.
. Bell noted that he doesn't believe that people will come just for input into the park
system -- you need to note that you are preparing information for a park bond issue.
That way people will be more interested�
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Park Committee Minutes . •
10/24/78
� There was further discussion on the "letter to the Editor'', how the notice should be
stated etc. Miller stated that he feels that the public should be informed that the
Park Committee is drawing up a Park Bond Issue.
Councilmember Fitzsimmons stated that the main objective is to get the people there --
if you steer them off before they get there, then you've lost the battle. If you can
get them there and then tell them what you want to do -- then you can nail them while
they are there on the Bond Issue -- otherwise you won't get them there. Dave Miller
stated that he felt that the Bond Issue idea would get them there, not scare them away.
Bassett stated that the "report on Bond Issues" noted that the first time you say --
"City of Apple Valley is proposing a Bond Issue fo� Parks" in the amount of X dollars
on March 2, 1979 -- it should be a well done public press release because alot of
people make up their minds at that time. As far as saying Park Bond Issue for a meet-
ing like this, I think the people should know that the reason we're gathering inforrna-
tion is so that we can submit a program to the residents for their vote. Maybe not
bring the whole thing to the public at this meeting.
Roger Wangen sugg�sted that it be mentioned to the friends & neighbors of the Park
Committee and consider putting the announcement on the Reader Board at the nursery
and publicize inore than just the newspaper.
Dave Miller asked about putting "flyers" in the grocery bags at the stores. Ginny
noted that the City cannot promote an issue as Vote Yes. There was considerable
discussion on different ways to promote the input meeting and attempt to get people
• to attend.
Joe Walz asked if the Park Gommittee had given any further consideration about going to
the civic organizations and asking them for their input on a 5 minute basis -- as
was discussed previously. Wangen stated that they went to VAA -- what happened there
is what would happen at other meetings that we would go out to. Takes alot of time and
you see only one interest at a time. At a large input meeting the Gardenettes will
recognize what VAA wants and VAA will recognize what the Gardenettes want and it will
not be a meeting for a special interest in one particular phase of the park system, but
the entire system. There was discussion regarding going to the civic organizations;
when and how. Ginny noted that the civic organizations have their programs planned in
advance -- and they have numerous requests for this type of thing. There just isn't
time.
Bassett stated that the Park Dept. will do the press release and try to get the Reader
Board and possibly some flyers the weekend before that �ould be distributed.
He asked for someone to call the Presidents of the various organizations and remind
them that a representative from their group'should plan ta attend to give the Park
Committee their input' on the Park System. He suggested breaking it down and giving
different assignments to the members. Ginny Sterling volunteered to contact the
Civic Organizations. Roger stated that the people should be told that their interests
are of significant value to their park system. The Park Committee would like to have
them there to be able to spread the information to their people. Make it sound import-
ant to them to be there, not only for their good but for the good of their organization.
Mike Bassett stated that the City Staff could mail out a letter then it could be followed
up with a phone ca11.
• Mike Bassett asked that Roger and some of the other members of the Committee sit down
and review the format. The Committee agreed to start the meeting at 7:30 p.m. The
Park Committee will meet at 6:45 p.m. They also agreed to �nvite the Council and
Planning Commission.
- Page 4�11
Park Committee Minutes � �
10/24/78
. Mike Bassett & Joe Bell agreed to meet and discuss an agenda.
Mike Bassett stated that an idea regarding the Timetable would be -- with respect to
when the Committee reaches the point of promoting the Bond Issue or trying to inform
the community of the fact that there is a forth coming bond issue and getting the
information out to them is having a Ad Hoc Park Improvement Committee -- for example,
expand the Park Committee to 25 people that are interested in the Park System and
possibly make it a version of the S.O.S. Committee that the school district had. ,
Those people could be the ones that get to the grass roots of the community and act
as precinct captains, etc. Set up coffee parties and get to where the people are at.
This could be an outcome of the Community Input Meeting if there are interested people
that show up. We want people to help the Park Committee get the information out to
the residents. Try that type of an approach. For a five month period of time we
could have an ad hoc Park Improvements Committee. Joe Bell stated that he felt it
is a good idea. Councilmember Fitzsimmons stated that an Ad Hoc Committee can do some
things that the City and Park Committee can't do, like Vote YES. It was noted that as �
a citizen you can incourage people to Vote Yes; however, the Park Committee as a whole
cannot promote the Vote Yes.
6. DISCUSS CHANGES TO FIVE YEAR SYSTEMS PLAN.
Mike Bassett distributed a sheet indicating the Revisions recommended to the 5 Year
Plan, (see attached) . Mike explained the Five Year System Plan and the way it is layed
out. The sheet indicates some of the changes that the Committee has discussed.
The Committee discussed some of the changes that have been suggested. They discussed
the Scott Highlands sliding hill and accidents that have happened. Ginny Sterling noted
• that the kids are pleased with the wind shelter at Pennock Park.Mike Bassett stated that
the City has made a couple shelters so the kids could get out of the wind to put on
their skates at the parks with skating rinks that don't have shelters.
7. DISCUSS THE PARK SURVEY RESULTS.
This item was tabled at the last meeting to be brought up at this meeting. Chairman
Wangen noted that the results were not overwhelming however it did provide an opportunity
for everyone to respond. He noted that we do know a couple things -- that is that not
everyone in the City is interested in active athletics; and it seems to him that just
generally reading it that the Park Committee pretty much as the feeling of the public
in regards to the Five Year Plan. Basically it gave the Park Committee some ideas as
to what people are thinking. Wangen recommended re-tabulating the results in the
form of Yes & No and put it out in the form of a news release so people will know what
other people said and they will know how many people said it and that everyone had a
chance to say it. Ginny recommended using a percentage basis, rather than numbers.
Bell noted that it isn`t a random sample of the City because we don't know where they
came from. He doesn't feel that the Committee can make any broad judgements.
Councilmember Fitzsimmons pointed out that one particular item she would be reluctant
on was the Farquar Lake Park results. She doesn't feel that the question was adequately
explained. She feels that people got the wrong concept on the way the question was
worded. She noted that the Historical Committee was concerned about the wording of the
que�tion -- the results from that would need more explaining to be valid. Roger
again stated that he feels th�t the results should be published; he feels people would
• be interested. He is interest in creating interest within the City towards the Park
system. Joe Walz pointed out that when it isn't valid or reliable -- what is it worth?
It is interesting to the Committee, but it has no merit beyond that.
Dave Miller stated that you could do an item telling how many were returned and clarify
that you don't know where they live, etc. That would let the individual reader make up
his own mind as to how valid the report is.
Page 4�12
� Park Committee Minutes • �
10/24/78
Ginny recommended that it be mentioned at the input meeting. Bell feels that it is valid
• for the committee to look at, however, doesn't see it as helping. He is concerned about
the negative comments. Ginny feels that the peopl� ;should have an opportunity to know
the results -- it can be noted that the response was poor. Bell stated that he isn't
opposed to Ginny's idea. It was agreed to explain the results at the Input Meeting.
There was considerable discussion regarding the way it would be presented at the meeting.
There was some discussion regarding contacting Carol Bowling, the Editor of the
Countryside. Discuss an edi�orial and also coverage of the meet'ing. Ginny Sterling
volunteered to contact her.
OTHER ITEMS
Mike Bassett stated that the Regional Park Directory for the area from the Metropolitan
Council was d�.stributed. He aZ�o distributed a copy of the Land Use Guide Plan.
Meeting adjourned.
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•